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Runtime Runaround

By Ed Foster, Section The Gripelog
Posted on Mon Apr 28, 2003 at 09:41:24 PM PDT
An interesting story played out the last few weeks while I was busy preparing to launch this weblog. A Visual FoxPro developer working on a project to run VFP on a Linux system using the Wine Windows emulator one day received an urgent phone call from a Microsoft product manager. Demonstrations of the project, he was warned, violated the VFP 8.0 EULA.


After he and other VFP developers got a little more information from the product manager, it became clear the EULA term at issue was this:

3.1 General Distribution Requirements. If you choose to redistribute Sample Code, or Redistributable Code (collectively, the "Redistributables") as described in Section 2, you agree: (i) except as otherwise noted in Section 2.1 (Sample Code), to distribute the Redistributables only in object code form and in conjunction with and as a part of a software application product developed by you that adds significant and primary functionality to the Redistributables ("Licensee Software"); (ii) that the Redistributables only operate in conjunction with Microsoft Windows platforms...

This left the VFP developers somewhat confused. Even if the "redistributables" - meaning the VFP runtime modules - have to be run on a Windows platform, that would not seem to preclude demonstrations of their project as long as they employed a fully licensed-version of FoxPro on the system. Microsoft refused to say much more on the subject than "as with any contract, you should seek you own legal counsel's advice when interpreting your rights and obligations under the Visual FoxPro End User License Agreement."

Like I've always said about sneakwrap licensing, it's not so much what the "contract" says as what the vendor wants it to mean. But there are obviously bigger issues here than Microsoft's penchant for making dubious legal threats. Does Microsoft really have the right to insist the Visual FoxPro runtimes only be used with Windows? If so, could it do the same thing with Word or Excel by dropping a few words in the EULA for those programs?

And it's not just Microsoft, for that matter. Recall our recent discussions about TurboTax versus books and the reader who bought a Cisco router via eBay. The common thread is technology companies putting restrictions and limitations on how you use the products you purchase. Why can they do it when other industries can't?

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Runtime Runaround | 16 comments (16 topical) | Post A Comment
EULA Terms[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#1)
by Seaan on Wed Apr 30, 2003 at 01:31:12 PM PDT

Personally, I tend to ignore EULA terms, especially those that are legally unenforceable (such as Microsoft's anti-benchmark clause).  The problem with this strategy is when manufactures build controls into their program that enforce them - Intuit's Turbo Tax is a good example.  When that happens I return it or avoid buying it in the first place.

The issue is more difficult professionally; both because there is more risk and because there is typically less flexibility in choice.  When I worked on a software selection committee for a large company, the best I could do is to bring up these issues for consideration and try to get them "priced" into the decision.  

Unfortunately I never saw the EULA derail a deal, although they did make some people pretty unhappy.  Of course that was a few years ago and things seem to have gotten much worse.  Another bad trend is the changing the EULA after the fact (pioneered by Microsoft and their infernal need of security patches and bugfixes).


[ Reply to This ]



ddd[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#17)
by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 01:02:49 AM PDT

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[ Parent | Reply to This ]


This is all a bunch of crap[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 01, 2003 at 08:30:58 AM PDT

The only issue I see here is a bunch fuck-wits wanting their cake and eating it too. On one hand, they bad mouth MS. On the other hand, they are more than willing to use a MS dev tool.

The EULA is clear and all these ass holes want to do is effectively get something for nothing.

If these people had any balls and were being true to the cause they purport to have, he would create an open source dev tool that would bring the functionality of VFP to the Linux market.

A lot of online resources have picked up this story and in every case, have based the story from 1 perspective. Where is the fairness in that?

Fortunately, there are at least a few level headed people willing to argue the other side of this instead of being yet another blind following sheep in the herd.

[ Reply to This ]



No axe to grind, here, eh?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#3)
by TedRoche on Thu May 01, 2003 at 10:13:31 AM PDT

No, I bought a tool from Fox Software many years ago that I could deploy on DOS, Windows, Mac and UNIX, and with it I have made a successful living for a dozen years. Now, I'd like to find out if I can use it on a platform other than Windows, and I find Microsoft has slip-streamed new requirements into the licenses that prevent me from doing that. That's a pretty shabby way to treat their customers. So, how about paying for a license to redistribute on another platform, since FoxPro won't be subsidized by the OS? I'd be willing to consider a reasonable offer. At this point, clients have indicated their willingness to deploy the entire IDE for the power of VFP on Linux, at $649 SRP per box. There may be an opportunity for Microsoft to make some money in these troubled times.

I am not interested in building an open source tool to duplicate VFP's power - it is a very large undertaking and not the type of development I usually do. However, I am certainly looking at tools in that arena - LAMP is rich with possibilities. I would have been pleased to see Microsoft in that venue, just as I am pleased they wrote MS Office for the Mac, Front Page Extensions for UNIX, and BASIC for my Commodore 64.

As for the alternative perspective, Ken Levy has been quoted in several of the articles, hasn't he? Is there a third angle to the story? Please enlighten us.


[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Re: No axe to grind, here, eh?[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#6)
by Anonymous User on Thu May 01, 2003 at 11:39:27 AM PDT

Then go to Kylix

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Very level-headed[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#4)
by EdLeafe on Thu May 01, 2003 at 10:37:05 AM PDT

Wow! I had no opinion on this matter, but your level-headed discourse has swayed me over! I sure hope that all Visual FoxPro developers are as intelligent, courteous and level-headed as you most certainly are!!

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Please clean up your act like M$ should[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#11)
by Boris on Fri May 02, 2003 at 09:52:43 AM PDT

Your potty outh detracts from your arguments which belong in the garbage. If you purchase a product, you should not be limited on what platform you can run run it on. It is called bundeling and is illegal under the anti-trust laws. How would yo like it if Ford said you could only drive your car on asphalt roads and that the use on concrete or gravel or dirt roads would not only nulify your warranty but they would sue you for illegal use of the product you PAID for. Mose of us would not be driving Fords, right? But if Ford were the only manufaturer of cars then what would you do? It is restrictions like this that really quash competition. This is Eccon 101 stuff. You really need to do your homework before you start with the manure spreading. "Profanity is a feeble mind trying to forcefully express itself".

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Profanity[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#12)
by Anonymous User on Fri May 02, 2003 at 09:59:59 AM PDT

Amen to the quote from SWK.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


Clarity[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#5)
by EdLeafe on Thu May 01, 2003 at 10:47:18 AM PDT

My problem with all this is that the EULA is legal language, and we are not lawyers. So when a developer was told that he may be in violation of this document, he sent an email asking for clarification on 3 specific points. Instead, the only reply was an even fuzzier "clarification" (see this page for the text), which ended by saying that developers should seek legal counsel to tell them what the EULA means. When you start requiring developers to be lawyers, or to have to hire lawyers to install a product, the problems run a lot deeper than this matter, which really only concerns Visual FoxPro developers and the businesses that run on Visual FoxPro applications. And it is this kind of legalistic posturing that, IMO, will continue to drive more and more business toward Open Source solutions. It may well end up that Microsoft's blundering attempts at squashing Open Source will instead provide the fuel to let it shine brightly.

[ Reply to This ]


Legal Analysis[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#7)
by Ed Foster on Thu May 01, 2003 at 11:55:40 AM PDT

A very interesting legal analysis of this situation has been posted by John T. Mitchell of Interaction Law:

Interaction Law

Mitchell argues that Microsoft is pushing the bounds of copyright law too far. I suspect what he's saying could pertain to some of the other situations we've seen where software publishers impose usage restrictions throught their EULAs.

[ Reply to This ]



RE:Legal Analysis[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous User on Fri May 02, 2003 at 04:00:15 AM PDT

Ed,

Clearly, Mr. Mitchell's arguments are slanted toward loosening up copyright restrictions. Therefore, his conclusion is not surprising.

His analysis is flawed to the extent that he does not differentiate between running VFP and distributing the royalty-free runtimes. MS is not saying that people cannot run VFP on Linux. All MS is saying is that people need to have the appropriate license. It is important to note that MS is under no obligation to allow royalty free distribution in the first place.

Software vendors are entitled to earn a profit from their vendors. In ths case, MS has decided to allow free distribution on Windows which in effect, subsidizes the free distribution VFP developers get. Alternatively, MS could say "OK, if you wan't the right to run VFP anywhere, you will need to pay a royalty fee." Right now, the only way to accomplish this is to require people to buy the full dev version for each machine ($600) or to buy a copy of windows for each machine (but not actually use it). Buying a copy of windows would be the cheaper way to go. However, if MS decided to charge say - $50 for each distribution, MS could rightfully do so.

This is the point that proponents of the VFP/Linux issue fail to grasp.


[ Parent | Reply to This ]



Foxpro Redistributables[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#9)
by Anonymous User on Fri May 02, 2003 at 07:02:29 AM PDT

If "Foxpro Redistributables" means Foxpro runtime modules then isn't MS in violation of it's own Eula if they work under WINE/Linux? As long as I did not create an install program for Linux wouldn't I be following the EULA as much as possible. Once a Foxpro app is installed it would be easy for the user to migrate it to Linux - especially if tools or information was readily available from a third party on the internet. Even if I had to follow certain coding practices to allow my app to work under WINE/Linux I can't see how I would be in violation of the EULA as long as I sent out my application in a Window install program. Todd. (Didn't want to be anonymous - just didn't get my password quickly enough)

[ Reply to This ]


VFP Runtimes under other than MS OS[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous User on Fri May 02, 2003 at 09:45:35 AM PDT

In case anyone forgets, dBase is still out there, awaiting the return of its former fans from the evil empire. My contact at dBase Corp. states that dBase is more than happy to allow users to use the dBase runtimes on any platform they choose. And it is relatively easy to convert VFP source code to dBase source code; after all, the FoxPro language was a direct copy of the dBase language in the first place.

[ Reply to This ]


dBase[ Parent | Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#13)
by EdLeafe on Fri May 02, 2003 at 10:36:26 AM PDT

Many Fox developers started out as dBase developers. They moved to Fox because it so amazingly fast. One reason Microsoft bought Fox software is so that they could own the technology that made Fox so fast. They took that and added it to their SQL Server product, and have been setting speed records with SQL Server ever since.
 
Fox and dBase were last compatible about 10 years ago. Since then, FoxPro was largely re-written into a completely different product, Visual FoxPro, which contained the same fast data engine, but added a full object-oriented language that was based on Xbase syntax. Sure, some old pre-Visual stuff can run, but not very well. I don't believe that dBase's object-oriented code and VFP's are compatible.

[ Parent | Reply to This ]


EULA's in general[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous User on Fri May 02, 2003 at 12:06:26 PM PDT

What really confuses me and makes me want to sell every computer I own and move into the backwoods is this: If I buy a truck from Big Blue Oval, I can do anything the government does not prohibit. I can run it into the woods, scratch it, put big tires on it and generally treat it like I own it. I can sell it to a like minded person for whatever we can agree on. What a concept. Now, I may void my warranty but I am not limited to what I can do with it. Software and even IT hardware have stopped this sort of behavior. I can no longer use something I paid for to the best of my abilities. Too many lawyers are involved and it will not get any better until we streamline the process of eliminating lawyers from everyday tasks. Let's face it, if they had a say in everything, nothing would get done but they'd collect 30% off of any real or perceived value exchange in real dollars before taxes, fines, gratuities and penalties, based on the liability set forth in the agreement between, you guessed it, more lawyers.

[ Reply to This ]


aderalahoo.com[ Reply to This ] (none / 0) (#16)
by rickman on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:32:48 PM PDT

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[ Reply to This ]


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